You Are Not The Problem In Emotional Abuse with Carine Van Hee

When Doubt Starts Quietly

When a relationship leaves you doubting yourself, awareness can become the beginning of finding your way back to yourself. Today we're exploring the hidden patterns that can make unhealthy relationships so confusing. Why someone may struggle to name what is happening, why leaving can be more complicated than it appears from the outside, and how awareness, creativity, and self-care can become part of rebuilding trust in yourself again. So welcome to Connect, Inspire, Create, a podcast exploring meaningful conversations about life, work, creativity, and the ways that we can explore fresh ideas. Let's slow down just enough to notice what inspires or intrigues us and how these insights can help shape what we create in our lives. I'm Carol Clegg, a life coach, offering gentle accountability for navigating change, trusting yourself, and creating what comes next. Joining me today is Carine Van Hee an artist, author, and speaker whose work brings awareness to emotional manipulation and unhealthy relationship patterns. Carine draws from both lived experience and creativity in her work. She is the author of Is It Me, The Hidden System Behind Toxic Relationships, a book created to help people recognize patterns that can otherwise feel confusing, isolating, and difficult to explain. Through her art, writing, and speaking, she explores the importance of relationships built on respect, honesty, and emotional freedom, and the role creativity can play in reconnecting with ourselves after difficult experiences. So, Carine, welcome. Lovely to have you join me.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking so forward to this conversation.

Likewise, likewise. So Carine is joining me. I asked you, you're in Belgium at the moment, right?

No, we have moved as a family to Norway. So we since 2022 we live in Norway

Early Patterns That Look Like Love

now. It's cold here.

Oh, lovely. Yeah, my son-in-law was just there visiting a friend who was working there and getting used to the long daylight hours.

Yes, it's amazing. It's it's a big difference. We thought when we moved from Belgium to Norway that many things would be the same, but the impact of the light is huge. In the summer, we have like 24 hours of light, and that's a big change versus what we were used to having in Belgium. So and in the sun in the wintertime, it's quite like a contrast.

Yeah, it's cozy. Then you get cold. Oh my goodness. Well, we have quite a deep conversation ahead of us, but before we head into that, when people first meet you, what is something they're often surprised to learn?

When they meet me, they often think nothing happened to me that was really serious. They all think that life went well and there was nothing, just like no hidden chapters in my life. Because I think the main thing people say about me is I'm joyful, joyful and positive.

And we were just talking about that before. We we hit the record button of the energy that one can put out and how you approach things in life, and we have choices. And so I think that's beautiful that people don't know that, and yet at the same time, like today in the conversation we're gonna have, somebody out there is gonna be listening and go, This is what I needed to hear today. Yeah, I hope so. I really hope so. Yeah, do you describe toxic relationships as following patterns rather than simply just appearing out of nowhere? So, what are some of these early patterns that people may not recognize at first?

Yeah, this is this is a really good question. I get that question a lot because we are looking for red flags, but most of the times it just starts lovely. So there are no red flags to look after, to look for. It's just when I I've been in many different toxic relationships, also at work, and they just start lovely. You you feel understood, you feel heard, you feel loved, you feel cared for, you feel supported. It's just lovely. But then it starts to change over time, and one of the first things they will do is they will love bomb you, they will try to get into the next stage as soon as possible. Let's move in together, let's marry together, let's have a child together, let's do something together, let's put our finances together. So they want to move quickly because the next step they will do is isolate you so that you don't talk so much anymore to your friends and your family, and they have you more under their control, so they can praise and provoke you and start the game and the playbook of uh the toxic relationships. But when it starts, it just starts lovely. There's no for me, there's no red flag I can think of, apart from the fact that they want to move really, really quickly to quickly the speed of which things move from getting to know somebody to we're we're on this path together.

Oh, yeah.

If you hear somebody, oh, I just met that lovely, wonderful human being, and we're gonna live together within two weeks, and then we're gonna marry within six months, that's a red flag. Okay, that could potentially be a red flag. That's not, I mean, when you get to know somebody, trust takes time. Yes, and that's something they want to avoid. Yeah, they want the the trust building is like skipped. To to put it on fast forward, fast play. Fast

Conflict Versus Abuse And Power

forward, yes.

Fasten your seatbelt, go. I think there's also an important distinction in relationships in general. We can have conflict in a relationship without it being abusive. So, how can we begin to understand the difference between ordinary conflict and a pattern of this emotional manipulation that you've just spoken about or abuse? You know, we don't want to shy away from conflict, but how do we separate them?

Yeah, I think it's a it's a very thin line for many people. And it was the same for me because when I was in a toxic relationship, I didn't even know. Because when the when you have a conflict between two people, people talk to each other from an equal point of view. They have respect each other, but they have different views. So you talk about the different views, you try to understand the other one's point of view, you try to build bridges, and there's equality. When we people, many people think of, yes, but that uh couple has uh a conflict, and perhaps they have a conflict, but perhaps they have abuse. There's a difference between conflict and abuse because abuse is when there's a discrepancy in power. There's one with all the power, and there was one with power who is powerless. There's one who's gonna be the abuser, and the other one is gonna be the victim. So there's there's no equality whatsoever. And when they play a game on you, you sometimes you don't even know it, but it's not a conflict anymore because the abuser will not try to understand, he's gonna try to manipulate you, which is totally different in feel. You will feel that you're not being heard, you're not feeling being said, seen, your your views are not too taken into account. And although they may say that they hear you and they believe you, their behavior shows something totally different. So the behavior pattern afterwards is very shows actually how whether it was a conflict or whether it was abuse, whether that be.

A couple of things that come to mind that you know you hear the said so often, actions speak louder than words. Yes, actions and tying that in together, you know, and then if I think of conflict, I mean sometimes we have different personalities and it might be too overwhelming in the moment to resolve the conflict, and one might want to remove oneself from it and come back to the conversation later, but that's a give and take. And that's and respect. I think that's the other word that I sort of feel comes in. If there's respect for the fact that you're uncomfortable with this conversation that I'm having with you because we're arguing about something, yeah, there's there's still love and respect.

Yes, and most of the times when we have a conflict, we're trying to solve the conflict together. We're gonna perhaps not in the moment, but but afterwards, we're gonna think about it, we're gonna come with arguments, we're gonna try to solve the conflict together. But when you are in an abusive relationship, it's always you are the problem. The problem is not me as the abuser. You are the problem. So this is the big distinction. They have all the power, they keep all the power, and you are the problem. And when you're long enough in an abusive relationship, you start believing it because of the manipulation and the fact that they hijack your

Why You Cannot Name It

mind.

This is what I was gonna ask you next. You know, why is it so difficult for someone who is living in this abusive relationship to actually be able to even begin to explain what is happening to the people that they do trust? It's just as you said, you begin to think it's not.

Yes, it's I think it's really, really hard to explain. It took me, so I've been in a toxic relationship like over 25 years ago, and it took me two decades to actually actually understand that I had been in a toxic relationship. It was only when my mom died in 2023 that I when I looked at her life and I started studying again that I discovered that she and my father had been in like a toxic relationship for over 65 years, and when I looked at the pattern, I discovered that I had been in a toxic relationship myself. It was just invisible to me because I didn't know the playbook, I didn't know the pattern behind it, I didn't know all the ingredients of the pattern. So to me, it was invisible even when I was in it, even afterwards. So it takes a long time. So people actually, if you're in it, you cannot express what's happening to you because you don't know, you don't have the language, you don't understand. And because of the fact that they have isolated you and they have manipulated you, and they have they there's gaslighting and silent treatment, they have you have all these different components of the pattern. You don't know anymore who you are, so it's even more difficult to understand that what's happening.

You think you think it's you, you just have no identity, is what I'm hearing. Yes, and obviously your confidence and self-trust.

You know, when I left, I I I always referred for the past two decades, I referred to that relationship as confusing, complex, uh perhaps we're not not a good fit. I just I never used abuse, yeah. Never.

Yeah, that's so interesting. You know, often people on the arts are telling me, why don't you just leave? Why don't you, you know, just get up and leave? But it's leaving is not easy.

No, and what's happening is I mean, when you're in a when you start with somebody you think is really lovely and caring, and you feel the love, you feel I felt hurt and seen and admired, and you think, oh my god, I found my soulmate. And when that person shifts from being feeling safe to feeling unsafe, and when the moment you you think like perhaps I should leave, they will move back to feeling safe. So they play the game of luring you into believing that perhaps there's a possibility that it goes back to the like the human being that they were at the the fairy tale version of the what we you do not understand as a survivor, as a victim of abuse, is that the fairy tale version of that of your partner is not real. Yeah, yeah, the harsh reality, the fact that this person is manipulating you and it's nasty, that is your real uh relationship, and it just it's just uh it's almost not to

Leaving When Hope Keeps Resetting

be understood. You cannot wrap your head around it that people can understand. The enormity so much, yeah. The enormity of it. It's not so before you get it, it's I I didn't get it whilst whilst I was in it, and people never asked me why don't you leave because they didn't see it, it was invisible, it was behind the walls. Yeah, so he was just lovely and charming. And when I left, I also lost all my friends because they didn't believe me.

Oh, that is it's got to be the hardest thing because leaving can feel freeing. You've stepped into something, it takes an incredible amount of power for yourself and and belief and just facing the absolute unknown, and then to have that as well. I don't bring self-trust into this because this is something I think that is such a valuable gift that we all have this ability, and if we allow it to blossom and to grow inside us, but when someone spent a long time questioning themselves and their feelings and all these memories, how do you how do they begin to slowly start trusting themselves again?

Rebuilding Self Trust After Gaslighting

That's a long journey. I'm still walking, I'm still on the journey of healing. I've I I've done a lot of things. I've I've been into therapy, I've I've tried all kinds of things because I'm a very curious mind. I want to grow as a person, I want to become a better person also for myself and for the others. But it took me the first thing is you need to detox, you need to get abusers' voice out of your head, and that's one of the most difficult things to do because he has installed himself in your head. Right. You have to be aware first of the fact that he's still in your head, that whenever you make a choice, you still hear him. I'm not gonna wear that shirt because he didn't like it, I'm not gonna choose that bread because he didn't. So the the daily stuff is very challenging because you still hear their voices, whether it's a parent or a sibling that you've been in a toxic relationship with, you still hear their voices and the voice talks first, and that's awareness. It's a lot of work.

It is a lot of work. You know, I use some methods from positive intelligence which and rewiring your neural pathways and just knowing that money is available for us, is that it's hard work, but you know, to be able to catch that thought and to turn it around or replace it. And but interestingly enough, I've just had the two Danish psychologists on this metacognitive therapy of coming back to what you're doing and letting the thought go and wait for a moment. So if you were cooking and then you were thinking, I shouldn't be using this bread because I am cooking now, I am making this lovely dish, and I will come back to thinking about the bread later. So it is just so incredible that there are tools out there to help us rewire. Because, as you say, it's it's a journey and it doesn't happen you know overnight. Um something I want to add to that.

I think it's really interesting what you just said right now. That's really interesting because what I understood when I was in the relationship is that I was somebody who's really oh, I'm somebody who's really open and sensitive. I can like sense the room in a minute. This means I was very open and and and focused on the other person. What they do, I I also was very proud of the fact that I could rely on my gut feeling or my navigational system. We all have the intuition. But what they do when you're in an abusive relationship is they make sure that they argue with you, they manipulate you, they they're they make sure that you're in your head. So you disconnect from your body and you disconnect from that navigational system you all have, and you don't know it anymore, you don't feel it anymore.

You're only thinking, yeah, because you know, we talk about all these negative thoughts that we have in a normal life without an abusive relationship added in. I mean, we're always putting ourselves down. So if someone else has implanted themselves in that system and you're fighting, you're fighting that anyway, now you're yeah, I thought I think of double fighting it.

Yes, you're here, you're just living from uh only in your head, and you don't feel your body anymore. So to me, it was like, and that where this is where creativity comes in, is that feeling your body again, making that link with your body again, trying to understand, feel, trust your nutrition again, finding ways into your body again. There's so many things you can do about that.

And that's I'd love to talk about that with you because creativity has played such an important role in your healing. Yes. So,

Creativity As A Way Back Home

you know, I know that you've got a beautiful piece of art behind you. What for you could your art express that words couldn't?

Oh, a lot. Everything. You know, I didn't feel safe anymore in the world, and art has become like my safe space where I can just express anything. My grief, my sadness, my anger, my frustration, my love, my care, my joy. Everything can be expressed in my art studio. And this is like the best. It's like a mirror, a mirror, but it's also a mentor, it's a soulmate, it's a buddy, it's somebody who's there for me, who holds me. I mean, it's everything. So I would I would encourage everybody to find something. We all have creativity, whether that's cooking lovely meals, decorating your house, knitting something. That's something we all do here in Norway, knitting our old own uh wool and jumper. It's wonderful what they do here. Yeah, so the creativity really is the bridge towards our own sensations and emotions and feeling our body again. And that's what has what creativity means to me, meant to me, and still means to me. But I there's a shift in my journey, and there has been a shift in my journey over time.

That's yeah, I'm witnessing it myself, and because when you are being creative, you don't have a space to to ruminate over everything, and you move into, and then it's like my hands are creating. I'm watching it firsthand with my daughter because, as I mentioned earlier, having lost my husband in February, she is her and her husband are living with me for the moment, but she has taken the death of her father exceptionally. It's been very, very painful for her. And I'm watching her do the most beautiful, varied creativity. So she's got into stained glass and she bought all the tools and she's making from scratch, and she spends hours making you know this tiny little piece, but she's she loses herself in it and then creates this beautiful work that you can you know to admire. But she's been doing all sorts of things, you know, from printing to embroidery on the back of denim jackets. I mean, she is really exploring, you know, because for yourself being an artist, and as you say, encouraging others that it you don't have to be able to paint. No, there's other there's other ways that that you can be able to do that.

I encourage everybody, just take like a big white piece of paper and just go. You don't need to show it, right? Create as if you're on the move for yourself, for yourself, yes, and then just release it. I mean, you can release all your emotions, nobody has to watch it, you can watch it yourself. I think it's a mirror. When you have when you're pre creating something, you're so in the moment, and it's a coping mechanism. If you have too much grief, too much anger, too much whatever, it's a coping mechanism, but it's a wonderful one because it doesn't harm anybody. Exactly.

It's all your own. You know, part of my healing with grief at the moment is travel because travel challenges me and it puts me in a new space. And I, my mother was an artist, she was did beautiful work, and I keep telling myself I can't draw, but I have got a little sketchbook that I carry with me, and it's for nobody else. But when I'm sitting at a cafe or looking at something, I instead of taking a photograph, I'm sketching, and it's just for me to look back at and go, ha, I remember sitting there because I just got back from Portugal, and I I love being able to just sit near the water and have a coffee and sit and draw for me.

Yes, and feel all the colours, soak everything in. It's like a different way to look at the world, yeah. But when you I think it's first it's outwards, but then it can also go inwards, and you can feel what's needs to be expressed. Yes, and that's how I make my art. I go inwards, and I don't know what's gonna be expressed. I don't know, so I I'm open to my judgment, and I go like, okay, whatever. And it can be very powerful like this, but I have other paintings where it's less powerful, where you see like more joy or more movement or other colors. So it depends on what needs to be expressed that that day. So, and that's that's the power of art and creativity, it taps into something bigger than ourselves, exactly.

The Book That Makes It Visible

And another part of your creativity is I would love for you just to share a an overview of your book because you wrote a book and that's great. So, is it me, the hidden system behind toxic relationships? What might others find in the pages?

Well, I think that the best way to express it is nobody needs to figure it out themselves. I spent like two decades to understand all the whys I had about a con about the toxic relationship I didn't understand. So if you think like I'm in a relationship, it's confusing, it's unpredictable, I'm tired, I'm walking all in exhibits all the time, I'm ruminating. Ruminating is a big, big red flag. If you're in a healthy relationship, you're not ruminating. You're just enjoying. But if you're ruminating about the relationship, something is might be going wrong. So if you if that all resonates with you, I compressed like two decades of information in the book. It's 130 pages, it talks about my story, but it also has some framework about what's the theory behind it. Why do they use silent treatment? Why do they use manipulation? So that you understand. And my gift with the book to the people to people that are actually doubting is people say that read the book, it's here. People that say that read the book, they say it's an easy read, it's 130 pages. You can read it in one week, and it's hard to put down. But when you put it down, you have the insights to understand whether you're in a toxic relationship or not, and then you might take a different choice if you want to or not. You can decide again. And I think that's like the most powerful thing I can give to people. But there's something else I want to say as well, which is really, really important for me to express. That's what I'm trying to do with my artist. Like, when you're in a toxic relationship, many people think I'm weak. You're not. You're strong. It's because you were strong when they met you that they were attracted to you. You could be weak when you leave, but you were not weak when you started with them. You're not alone. Look at the statistics, it's not your fault. And yes, you can heal. I think that's the message I want to bring. Yes, we can heal. We don't need to get stuck in these relationships. And I think you know more than than I. I mean, you're helping people, so yeah.

Yeah, well, we both are, and I just love the fact that you know, there's caring for humanity and just yeah, wanting to help and wanting to contribute, and we're each unique, beautiful human beings, as you say. And it's just around this journey. And you know, you can find this the strength which is there. You uh you've got to look for it. So, Karina, I'm gonna make sure to have a link to your book. I have got your website and then other places for people to find you. I have Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Anything else? And Facebook.

But the easiest way, the easiest way is just my website. Everything is linked on my website, which is my name, Carinevanhee.com. It's the easiest way, I think. Wonderful.

Well, I'm going to have that in there. And thank you. I really appreciate what you've shared

Hope, Resources, And Closing

from your heart today. And just yeah, yeah, recognizing these patterns, trying to determine, and then just become curious and finding your way back to your own voice.

Oh, thank you for having me and for giving a platform for this like difficult topic. But there's hope. Yeah, there is. There certainly is. So thank you so much.

Thanks to all those who've been listening to Connect, Inspire, Create. And life doesn't always unfold the way we imagined. We all find ourselves navigating change, uncertainty, loss, or simply wondering what comes next. If something in today's conversation made you pause, I invite you to think of who else might need to listen to this episode and to share it with them. And may this week continue to bring you time to just reflect, stay curious, trust yourself, and keep creating what comes next. Thank you for spending time with us today.