When Your Mind Won't Stop: Finding Freedom from Overthinking with Shang Olsen & Michelle Lindhardt

Welcome And The Big Theme

Carol Clegg 0:00

Well, welcome everybody to Connect, Inspire, Create, a podcast exploring meaningful conversations about life, work, creativity, and the ways in which we can grow. Let's slow down our thoughts and our conversation just enough to see what inspires us and how those insights can help shape what we create in our lives. These conversations go beyond just business strategies. We explore living with intention and self-trust, alternative ways of thinking and being, creativity, purpose, and personal growth, and navigating transitions that we all face in work and life. So I am Carol Clegg, your host, an accountability and mental fitness coach, and I invite my guests from around the world who have a wide range of backgrounds to share their insights on how they live, think, and encourage and support others in our world. So joining me today are my two guests, Sharang Olsen and Michelle Lindhart. So welcome both of you and thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Carol Clegg 1:13

So Sharon Olsen is a Danish clinical psychologist and author who has spent over a decade helping people move beyond overthinking, anxiety, and feeling stuck in their own minds. And Michelle, I'd love you to just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your background.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Of course. So I'm a clinical psychologist as well. And just like Shang, I am also specialized in metacognitive therapy, which is an approach that really zooms in on not what we think, but how we deal with our thoughts. And just like Shang, I'm also working a lot with overthinking and in different spaces. So I'm really excited to be here today. Lovely.

Carol Clegg 2:00

Yeah, I think this is a topic that is going to be very valuable, not only to my listeners, but to myself as well. I know, Shank, that you shared that being an overthinker helped propel you into this field, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Right, exactly. So I know firsthand what it feels like, and I also know what it feels like not to do that anymore. Fantastic.

A Denmark Memory And Connection

Carol Clegg 2:22

So before we dive into this conversation about overthinking and worrying, I thought I'd just mention that I actually have a brief connection to Denmark. And it's I've got to think about as many years ago, probably over 40 years ago, my husband was competing in a world championships marathon kayaking event near Silkeborg. And I don't know if Silkeborg is anywhere near where you are. Not anywhere near us, but we know where it is. I love the lakes and the trees. And in fact, that was the trip when we went to Europe. He was competing throughout Europe that he actually proposed to me. So Denmark has a little mark in my heart. So I'm just thrilled that you're both joining me from there.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

How did you do in the uh competition?

Carol Clegg 3:09

It was the last one of you know, we'd been out for about two months and he did he did okay, not as well as he'd expected, but it was just still so beautiful to experience being there. So well, let's dive into our topic of

Why Worry Feels Responsible

Carol Clegg 3:30

worrying. And I think many of us assume that if we're worrying, it's because we're trying to solve something that's important. So, why do our minds worry so much if it still leaves us feeling anxious and not prepared? I'll let either of you help on that one. Why do we think we worry so much and we walk away and it doesn't help us?

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Well, okay. So we've learned through culture, through upbringing, through school, through self-help books, social media, basically from many places, that worrying is the responsible thing to do. Worrying is some form of preparation. Worrying mitigates dangers and problems in the future. So we assigned these positive things with worrying because we believe it's a good strategy, it's a good thing to do. And in fact, it's dangerous not to do that. It's problematic not to do that because we will miss out on something important, we will make more mistakes, people will think we're so-and-so, and like that if we don't worry. So we attach this important meaning to worrying, and that's why most of us like a strength.

Carol Clegg 4:43

It's a strength that we that we should have in our toolbox. Uh yeah. What just wondering, you know, the overthinking, the worrying. Do you think that's become more common in today's world because of the fast paces? Or do you think it's always been a part of being human that we've always worried?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Well, I would say that as human beings, we've probably always worried and been overthinking things, but I think we do that much more today due to all these multitude of triggers that we're faced with in today's world.

Worry Vs Rumination Defined

SPEAKER_00 5:19

And something I also wanted to mention because we talked about overthinking and worrying, I think it's important also to just zoom a bit in on that. Because when we talk about overthinking, we actually differentiate between two types of overthinking. So there's worrying, as we just talked about. Worrying is typically future-oriented. So this is when we start to ask what if questions and we catastrophize. So that could be, you know, what if I can't cope? What if something bad happens? Which is very common in today's world. But there's also a different type of overthinking, which is what we call rumination. So that is when we dwell on things and we try to make sense of things. This is typically past-oriented. So it can be that we try to make sense of the past or we ask, like, why am I feeling this way? Where is this coming from? So yeah, I just wanted to put that in there because I think Thank you.

Carol Clegg 6:16

Yes, that definitely does separate them, that that that they are two different. Um, and I think of the rumination as being sadly a little bit of a waste of time. Yeah. Definitely, you know, that we it's not solving anything. So that I know certainly that I've had seasons in my life where my mind just wants to solve everything, and so it stalls me, you know, from moving forward and taking action. And I think many of our listeners could relate, you know, to that feeling of you, you you get lost in the spiral.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Exactly. Absolutely. It feels productive, right? I'm I am doing something. I'm not just sitting around not doing anything, I'm working on stuff in here.

Carol Clegg 6:59

So giving yourself permission to continue to stay in that space. That's

The Three Signs Of Real Problems

Carol Clegg 7:04

yeah. I was reading one of your blog posts, and there was an idea that, as I mentioned earlier, really stayed with me because it just felt so practical. And I often think, you know, people love to have practical applications. But you wrote that not everything our mind labels as a problem is actually something we can solve just by thinking about it. And you said that a problem we can solve has three qualities, and I love that it's clear and observable, there's a practical next step, and the action has an endpoint. And I'd love for you just to walk us through that just so that people can understand that separation.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Right. So, so as Michelle mentioned, worrying consists of this internal conversation where we ask a lot of what if questions, we imagine the things going wrong, problems happening, all that stuff. And then we try to answer those questions. So it goes in a cycle. The consequence of worrying is that we just feel more anxious, we feel more stressed, we become more overwhelmed, and it's more difficult to take action. The problem solving is very clear because when we ask the question, what is the problem? It usually appears in front of us. Oh, the problem is that my offer, I don't know how to create this new offer for my business, for example. Okay, what is the next step? What could I do? I could consult a coach, I could ask someone, my friend, who knows what to do. I could look at this video, read this book, I can go ahead and do that, and I can do that on Wednesday. So that's very clear, very practical, very actionable, and we can put a date on it, even. Worrying does not really produce that, it's just the same material that's being reproduced and recycled, and we just end up feeling more anxious. I hope this made the distinction a bit clearer, but I'm thinking Michelle also has some examples that she sees with this.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, I think that's such an important thing to differentiate. And it's something that Shang and I often talk about because I think in today's world, people mistake problem solving for or overthinking for problem solving. And those are not the same things because as Shang just mentioned, problem solving we can only do when there is an actual problem. Whereas overthinking, you know, we could just go over the same things again and again, especially when we worry. So let's say that the example you gave before was really great, Shang. It could also just be that we, let's say we have an idea, we want to create something, we want to create a business. We can go about that in two different ways. Perhaps the problem is we don't know where to start. We can either worry about it, so we can overthink it, which would be then to think, well, what if it goes wrong? What if people will laugh at me? What if it won't be successful? Well, the more time we spend engaging in that kind of thinking process, the less likely we're actually to do it. Because the more time we spend engaging in that kind of thought processes, like the more we'll feel anxious, the more we'll doubt ourselves, and the less likely it is actually is that we'll put ourselves out there. Whereas if we went about this with a problem solve, or through looked at this through a problem-solving lens, what we could do is just sit down and ask ourselves, as you said, Chang, like, what is the problem? Well, the problem is I don't know how to start this business. Okay, what can I do? And then we can actually make it an in-action plan. Look at, okay, I can reach out to this person, I can get some advice. We can make a plan, and then we can actually carry that plan forth. So that would be problem solving. Whereas overthinking, it's like you said before, Carol, it's just like a loop, right? Like it just keeps us in the same loop over and over. And I think the issue is that we often think when we overthink, especially when we worry, then we're problem solving. But those are two different things.

Carol Clegg 11:11

Two different things. And you know what? A couple of things come to mind when you spoke about that. One is the problem solving. There's an element of confidence then that comes into propelling you into taking action. And also you can set it aside. So, as you mentioned, you know, putting it, writing it down, one could put it on your calendar, you could put it on a sticky note, you could write it on your whiteboard, and it releases you and allows you to move on to the next thing. One of the things I love, and I use this myself and encourage with my clients, and I don't know, is mind mapping. And I just use, you know, a blank sheet of paper. And if you put that, start the business as you know in the center, and then looked at all the elements that come into that and sort of take a bird's eye view over that, and then go, okay, where can I take action? And you know, what are some of the steps that I can then? And as you mentioned, you know, talking to a coach, reading a book, doing some training, but that there are answers to be found if one puts the overthinking and the worrying to the side and moves into practical action.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

But uh but I know that there are methods, sorry, is there a head as the one you just mentioned that you can use for that problem solving to become even better at problem solving, right?

Carol Clegg 12:29

Again, and then once again it adds to confidence.

Resilience Without Forcing Confidence

Carol Clegg 12:34

And then I also think of resilience coming into this this whole picture. You know, we often hear about building resilience and how powerful that is and how we you know we move forward with that. But it can also be a pressure word is that you need to be resilient. So I'd love for you just to, you know, what could that look like in a more simple everyday way of life? It's building mental resilience without the pressure.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Yeah. I think uh so so now in the in in the business sphere, we're talking about those examples, but a lot of business coaches do talk about you need to eliminate eliminate self-doubt, you need to eliminate uh low confidence and these limiting beliefs before you can move on. That also is part of this building resilience, I think, which does add a lot of pressure. The way I see it, and maybe Michelle has some input as well, the way I see it is that you learn to trust your plan rather than trusting your thoughts. So, what I what do I mean by that? We have so many thoughts coming up during a day, and it's actually more normal than not to have a lot of negative thoughts. Having self-doubt, having thoughts about not being good enough, not knowing how this is going to turn out is normal and human. We cannot really change that, and we don't need to follow them all. So I think building resilience is just to learn to skip through the noise and not engage in those thoughts, not engage in worry and rumination about these thoughts, but stick to the plan and the mind map and whatever it is that you've created. That's how I see it.

Carol Clegg 14:08

Yeah. I always did not think of a gentle approach. It was when you mentioned that, you know, I just thought the pressure, that's what we we don't need that. That's just going to add to what we're trying to find relief from. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Well, I I couldn't agree more with what Shang was just saying. And I think you're completely right, Carol. Like we also live in a world right now where we hear that word a lot, right? It's like a buzzword. Like, we need to build resilience, we need to strengthen our minds, we need to do XYC to cope. But perhaps the problem is also that we're trying too hard. We put a lot of pressure on ourselves. So we try all these kinds of strategies to try to boost our resilience. But what we actually forget is that if we think of the mind, the mind in itself is actually very resilient. So if we look at research, research shows that the mind has an ability to regulate itself. So if we are bombarded with negative thoughts, negative emotions, it has an ability to regulate itself. So these thoughts and emotions, they just slowly drift off and they won't linger. But I think the issue is that we've learned over time to engage in all kinds of strategies, such as overthinking, that it could also be we compare ourselves to others or we avoid taking chances and such. And the more we do that, the more we actually teach our minds that we have to do a lot to cope, when in fact our minds are actually built in a way that they can regulate themselves and they're really strong. So I think learning to not engage in all these unhelpful strategies and trusting the mind's ability to regulate itself, and like Shang said, not engaging in in this dialogue with one's inner critic, it makes all the difference.

Metacognitive Therapy In Plain English

Carol Clegg 16:10

I think that's wonderful. So I would I'd love to ask you to uh unpack for us a little bit about metacognitive therapy, the MCT, in a way that just people can understand and it sounds like such a powerful tool. So I'd love for you just to share a little bit more about what that actually is and and how that works.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

So, so a lot of cognitive therapies or popular therapies will ask you something in the lines of what is the evidence for this thought that you're having? For example, I'm not good enough, this is not going to be successful, people are gonna think this about me. Metacognitive therapy asks a different question. It asks, how much time do you spend dwelling on that thought? What is the effect of dwelling on this thought? Do you reach certainty? Do you reach confidence? Do you feel more ready to go and conquer the world? Or do you actually feel worse? And if you're feeling worse, why don't you stop? Let's teach you how to do that. So coming back to the resilient brain that Michelle talks about, the brain can take care of thoughts and feelings for us. We don't need to do all these things, all that work. Thoughts come and then they go. But if we dwell on them, they stay for longer. So metacognitive therapy helps us disengage from all these thoughts and not worry so much and not ruminate so much so that the mind can deal with it on its own. That's the basic premise.

Carol Clegg 17:37

Yeah, I love that. Uh yeah, because we do. We have strength and we have the ability to rewire on neural pathways. Exactly. And to to catch that negative thought as opposed to, yeah, just I think it's fascinating. Michelle, I'd love to just add here your side of your overview and how it helps people.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

I find it really empowering because, as Shang mentioned, so many therapies focus on the content of thoughts. So let's say if someone is feeling very insecure, uh, those kind of therapies might zoom in on well, why do you feel insecure? What's the evidence for you not being good enough? Could you think about that differently? Could you think about yourself differently? And it might sound like a great approach, but the problem is again, you keep engaging with all these negative self-critical thoughts. So exactly. So you actually end up engaging with them even more, and you're teaching your mind that you have to engage with them, which, like Shang said before, it will also just make those thoughts linger longer. Whereas I think what's so empowering about metacognitive therapy, the most important thing is to learn that you're not your thoughts. Thoughts are just thoughts. So as Shang mentioned previously, we get so many different thoughts every day. Some research even suggests that we can get up to 70,000 thoughts. So in one day, that's quite a lot of thoughts. And you know, some thoughts will be positive, which is great, some will be more neutral, but we also get a lot of negative thoughts every day. And everyone gets those. And I think some of the most common thoughts that we experience of negative thoughts are self-critical thoughts. So thoughts about not being good enough, thoughts about what other people think of us, and so on. Those thoughts are completely normal. But what metacognitive therapy does is it teaches us that we don't have to engage with those thoughts. So we don't have to eliminate them from our minds, to become resilient, to feel more confident and take more chances. It's more about learning that these thoughts can appear, but you don't have to engage with them. You decide, you have a choice in how you respond, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Carol Clegg 20:03

So, yeah, to me, what I'm here is to give the power back to yourself. Exactly. Believe in yourself and then also believe in your uniqueness because I think it is so sad that we allow all these negative thoughts of not being good enough. Whereas each of us brings something beautiful to the table. We're each unique, we're allowed to have these thoughts, but we can challenge them. Yeah and go, I don't need you right now, and this isn't, you know, this isn't working.

Shifting Attention When You Spiral

Carol Clegg 20:32

What are your thoughts about trying to separate with a physical? You know, one of the things that it's part of my training with positive intelligence is we we call them these power breaks, these power reps, and it's something as simple as just taking a moment to put your fingers together when you're overwhelmed with a thought and just losing yourself for a minute in the touch sensation to break that spiral and then perhaps feel strengthened and and come back to it with more empathy, more compassion. I I don't know if there's a physical element in MCT or bringing the body into it at all.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

So we talk about attention a lot, but we can use our attention flexibly. So oftentimes our attention can become stuck in our minds when we're dwelling on all these negative thoughts and worrying about stuff and ruminating. But we can also choose to put our attention on the thing that's right in front of us and the next important thing that we need to get on with. We don't talk so much about physically grounding ourselves, but what you're describing sounds like a way to shift attention. So away from the stuff that we're dwelling on internally to something else. And in this case, this is something physical that you're using. So if it works for people to do that, I think that's great. It's kind of like a grounding exercise. Exercise.

Carol Clegg 22:00

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like breath work. But it's just, yeah, a physical. And it's something that's so easy to do because if you're in a meeting and you're suddenly feeling overwhelmed with these negative thoughts or self-judgment, your hands just resting on your lap, you know, to give yourself a moment to catch that and go, okay, what else could I think about this?

SPEAKER_03 22:19

I see. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like concrete thing you can do when there's a lot of stuff going on and don't know exactly what you think about it. What the next step is. That's yeah. What I do with my clients is to tell them to shift their attention onto something else that's also concrete. So, for example, what is your colleague saying in this meeting? Can you pay a lot of attention to that? Can you pay a lot of attention to the sounds that you can hear on both sides? That is also something that we can

The 15 Minute Worry Window

SPEAKER_03 22:52

do.

Carol Clegg 22:52

That's well, that's wonderful. So if somebody was listening to our conversation today and we wanted them to just walk away with one gentle insight about their thoughts for this week, Michelle, what would you want them to remember?

SPEAKER_00 23:09

I would really want them to remember that we can't control which thoughts enter our minds, but we can control how we respond to them. So we aren't our thoughts. We can't decide which thoughts pop into our minds. It's normal, as I said before, to experience a lot of negative thoughts. I mean, we're our own worst critics. So it's very normal to experience a lot of self-critical thoughts, negative thoughts about the future and so on. We we can't control that. But what we can control is how we respond, whether we engage with our inner critics, whether we start to worry about the future, or whether we just treat the thoughts for what they are, which are just thoughts rather than truths, and just let them be and continue what we were doing prior to being triggered.

Carol Clegg 24:00

I think that's very valuable. We are not our thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

Would you like us something like something to keep in mind or an actual thing to do? Actual thing to do would be wonderful. I always love actual steps. Great. So what I recommend my clients to do is to postpone dealing with that thought for later. So let's say it's 10 a.m. in the morning, you're about to do something important, you're about to go into a meeting, thought pops up. What if they don't like what I say? What if they don't like what I do? Okay, I don't need to worry about this thought right now. I'm going to postpone thinking about this thought for later. And later is you set us back 15 minutes, later in the day, that's your worry time, that's your reflection time. And during that window, you can worry all you want, you can ruminate and criticize yourself all you want. But the rest of the day, you're getting into the habit of taking a break from constantly worrying and ruminating about your thoughts. So that's something we use in metaconcitive therapy. It's incredibly effective and it's very easy to remember. So schedule a worry window every day. It's not mandatory. So once you get to your worry window, you don't have to worry if you don't want to do that anymore. That's fine. You can just continue with your day. But that's when you can worry and ruminate and self-criticize.

Carol Clegg 25:27

I love that. It's like having a little time box and you set a timer and go, okay, I've got 15 minutes to worry. Let me get this all out and then move on to the next thing. I think that's a super practical step. So thank you. Thank you both for joining me today and just for you know shedding a light on action steps that we can take to just fulfill our own lives, to have more peace and calm and joy. I just I think it's important. We we have these incredible minds, they're capable of so much. And we know we get thrown, you know, with all these statistics, as you say, how many negative thoughts, but we we don't need to let them kind of you know sink the ship. Yeah. I I have a little saying that let the unknown be unknown and find joy in the unknown. You know, that there's an element of that. We don't have to always worry uh about the unknown.

unknown 26:22

Yeah.

Carol Clegg 26:23

Little uncertainty is good and healthy for us. But there we

Where To Find Them And Share

Carol Clegg 26:27

go. So where to find you? I have the website metacognitive therapycentral.com. Wonderful. And then a YouTube channel that helps. That's fantastic. And then Instagram for yourself, Shang, what about yourself, Michelle? Where would people connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 26:46

They can connect with me from my website, Michelle Linhart.com. So feel free. You can read much more about me there. Book me for workshop or training or supervision. Lovely.

Carol Clegg 26:59

And any social media, LinkedIn or Instagram? Yeah, LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

I also have a LinkedIn profile. So feel free to find me there as well. We'd love you to hear from your listeners. Wonderful.

Carol Clegg 27:11

So thank you both again for joining me. And thank you to those that are listening to Connect Inspire Create. If today's conversation has sparked something for you, I'd love for you to share it with a friend who you think could learn something from what we have been talking about. And you can learn more about me at CarolClegg.com or follow along on my Instagram, Explore Life and Flourish, where I am sharing a window into my travels, my healing of grief, and the small ways that I am learning to take care of myself as I move through this new season of my life. So until the next time, may your choices bring you closer to ease and flow.